[Stones] scholarship

[ewc]

Hi LS


<<though it would be a mistake to lump Oriental cultures together and say they lack a heightened sense of self-awareness. Chinese society (ancient and modern) was and still is highly individualistic.>>


It's a while since I read the Thomas piece myself - tho' I well remember not finding it remotely credible.


If you are willing to switch from talk of 'self awareness' to talk of societies which encourage individualism and those that discourage it then I think we have a lot of agreement here. 


Seems to me that societies are most times battlegrounds between Pelagians and Augustinians, or Shaivites and Vaisnavites, or Liberals and Socialists, etc etc - although of course the terms have fuzzy definitions and are ever shifting. 


I especially agree about China. We do find extreme forms of the organic controlling state in ancient China - in Chin, as represented in 'The Book of Lord Shang'. But this lost out historically to the more commercial states, following Confucian lines (see eg the philosophies of the 'Guanzi', taken up by the Han). And this seems to me to closely parallel developments in the Ancient Greek world - where Sparta was the home of authoritarianism, whereas the Ionian states fostered individualism. Ultimately Athens and Rome took a lot on board from what started in Miletos - or so it seems to me.


So I am disagreeing with Thomas over these ideas of self awareness, which seems to me different from individualism. And also about the idea that there is some fundamental East/West rift - which notion seems to me to thrive primarily upon the historical ignorance of modern sociologists, economists and, sadly, (some) archaeologists.


Interesting that you refer to cave paintings. In the historical period, it seems to me authoritarian societies have often been iconoclastic - whereas commercial, individualistic societies have often gone for realistic representation in art. So it crosses my own mind we could speculate that the rather standardised abstract patterns common in the Neolithic suggest a discouragement of individualism, and the much earlier realistic efforts represent the reverse. But I put this up as rank speculation merely for comment - its not a conclusion I would tie myself to the mast over!


best


rob

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: littlestone 
  To: Stones List 
  Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 4:55 PM
  Subject: [Stones] scholarship


  2) His notion that heightened self awareness is particular to modern Western cultures, and was/(is?) lacking in the orient. This showed a gross ignorance of oriental history imo.

  Hi rob. I haven't read Julian Thomas I'm afraid so can't really comment (in context) on his idea of heightened self-awareness being particular to modern Western cultures. I would say, however, that the idea may have some truth in it - though it would be a mistake to lump Oriental cultures together and say they lack a heightened sense of self-awareness. Chinese society (ancient and modern) was and still is highly individualistic. The same can't be said for the cultures/societies of Korea and Japan (and perhaps also Mongolia and Tibet which belong to the same ethnic group). Speaking personally, and as one who lived for nearly twenty years in Japan, it came as a considerable shock to return to the West and see just how obsessed with the 'human condition' Western culture is - this certainly does manifest itself in the West's pictorial and three dimensional arts. It's only a personal opinion but I'm inclined to think that any heightened self-awareness in the West is more a result of Greek and Roman cultural influence than anything inherent in our genetic makeup. If prehistoric European cave paintings are anything to go by it would seem to indicate more an interest in the natural world on the part of our ancestors than an interest in a heightened sense of self-awareness.

  Thanks for the link to Death, identity and the body in Neolithic Britain anyway - will try to check that out.

  LS


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